Gregory Weir ([info]feveredwritings) wrote,
  • Mood: contemplative

The Complications of Discussing Prejudice

NOTE: Please do not use this post as a reason or excuse to go to the blog mentioned and derail comment threads, troll, or otherwise reflect poorly on me. I do not need an advocate or an ally, only to air my feelings in a venue I own. One reason this is on LJ instead of Ludus Novus is that I do not wish to be complicit in meanness or disruption of others' blogs. Another caveat: I'm speaking from a position of privilege here, and I realize that, but I will do my best to compensate.



I subscribe to a group blog called Border House, which is dedicated to discussing games from the perspective of marginalized groups (minorities and women) and their allies. There's usually interesting stuff in the posts, although it's often much more provocative than productive. By that I mean that it asks interesting questions and presents interesting viewpoints, but rarely offers solutions or plans of action. That's fine; the biggest step is recognizing and understanding privilege and prejudice.

They recently started a series on Resident Evil 5, an issue which I've addressed before. My opinions in short: Although I have not played it, I believe that RE5 is irresponsible at best with regard to racism, and perpetuates awful stereotypes, demonizes Africans, and utterly ignores the racial and privilege issues that arise.

However, in that post, Lake Desire of Border House states that prejudice against white people is not racism, because it is not supported by institutional oppression. I wasn't aware of this at the time, but this is a view shared by several prominent people. Others disagree.

I too disagree, and I commented to say so. (Again, please do not jump in to advocate for me or cause trouble.) To paraphrase, I said "Institutional racism is worse than non-institutional racism, but to call prejudice against whites 'not racism' muddies the waters and ignores fundamental issues involved. Not that this has anything to do with RE5." So far, three different people have responded to my comment telling me not to "derail this comment thread into a Racism 101 discussion on the definition of racism" or telling me to get "a primer on what racism is." The post was edited to add a note to focus discussion on the post.

The title of the post I commented on was "What is racism?"

Just as people of privilege feel a reflex to strike back when accused of racism, people who are deeply involved in discussions of prejudice feel a reflex to dismiss questioning of their definitions. A single curt response requesting that I keep the discussion off the topic of definitions would have been fine, but I was repeatedly urged to stop, with charged language (repetition of the word "please," "respectfully suggest," "educate yourself," "Racism 101"). Note that this was in response to a single comment, the first comment discussing definitions in the thread. I had already stopped, making it clear that I was done.

I can completely understand their response. These sorts of discussions are plagued by people derailing the focus of posts, being willfully ignorant, causing trouble because they're offended. I assume they saw me as one of those people, and anticipating continued belligerence, decided to cut me off at the bud. I can understand that.

But I feel personally... offended? Disappointed? Discussing my feelings here seems a bit silly, speaking as I am both from a position of privilege and as the outsider who commented apparently inappropriately on their blog.

But still. The title of their post was "What is racism?" One of their main points, 1 of 3, was this definition of racism. My comment wasn't that off-topic, and as I said, I think I was clear that I didn't want to continue the discussion further.

To have a blog dedicated in part to discussing racial issues, but to not want to discuss the premises... I don't know. I'm sure they've had the discussion a hundred times. But here's the thing: I've grown to believe that I have a responsibility to call out prejudice where I see it, when I think the audience is responsive. And to say that prejudice against whites is "not racism" is to implicitly say that it's not a problem. Which is, well, racist.

I'm a white, mostly cisgendered, only-slightly-queer, Christian-cultured, mostly-fully-abled man. I'm sitting in a place of privilege, where prejudice against me has little chance of causing actual harm. It's certainly not institutionalized, except where I am ever-so-slightly trans, queer, emotionally disabled, and pagan. But racism is a problem that stems from a common cause. White folks and black folks are racist for the same reasons. White folks ended up on top, so our racism is a much bigger problem. But addressing the root of racism is important too, and we don't need to ignore it in order to address the larger issues of oppression.

I think I'm just whining and rambling here, so I'll end the post. I just felt the need to vent and share my views in a forum I control.

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  • 11 comments

[info]hcidivision17

January 17 2010, 21:20:28 UTC 2 years ago

I had something written that would perhaps back up your view and maybe make you feel a little justified. But I took it out.

Reading the comments, I think it's obvious why you were offended. And rhetorically, it's fairly obvious why your comment was both justified and lambasted. I suppose what really offends me were the responses, which derailed what is clearly something people want to talk about - for better or worse. I'm offended when people plead on the internet instead of voicing their counter opinion; there's no construction from acting loudly submissive/wounded, that's rhetorical hoohah (though *extremely* persuasive, to those unaware). To say a forum deserves better than any comment is excessively haughty to me. Some of us care about semantics. Deeply. You're a computer scientist, so this mentality is rather encouraged. Precision is important. Regardless, you get what comments you attract, and with a title like "What is Racism", I think they should be thrilled the trolling is as low as it is.

But that's just an outsider's viewpoint.

[info]juvenile_philos

January 17 2010, 21:54:51 UTC 2 years ago

This post really strikes a chord with me. [info]prosewitch and I have frequent discussions about (among other things) feminism, marginalized sexualities and the privilege involved in becoming invested in those issues as (variously) male, straight, or "passing" (a term that grates on me).

One of the dynamics that emerges often when privilege is involved is the development of an "Us vs. Them" mentality. If you're not (anatomically) a woman, you can't be feminist. If you're not queer, you can't take a stand on LGBT issues. If you're (heaven forbid) white and middle-class, you can't discuss racism. This can be very frustrating.

Another problem I've run into in discussing these sorts of issues, is that many times the associated movements are several iterations deep and replete in loaded language. (e.g. The word "privilege" has a very distinct meaning in this context.) In this case, I think Lake Desire was using the word "racism" as short-hand for "institutional racism". This was understood by those steeped in the movement, but was not as precise a way to express the thought as it could have been. I think the way you presented this objection was fairly clear, but in the context of an anti-racist blog it is not surprising that it was seen as ignorance and/or trolling.

Incidentally, this is one reason that I identify as a Humanist rather than as (variously) a feminist, LGBT advocate, or anti-racist. I don't ever want to become so involved in a particular movement that I condone prejudice. As another friend of mine is fond of quoting, "All oppression is related."

[info]anh_irrsinn

January 18 2010, 13:58:26 UTC 2 years ago

"Incidentally, this is one reason that I identify as a Humanist rather than as (variously) a feminist, LGBT advocate, or anti-racist. I don't ever want to become so involved in a particular movement that I condone prejudice. As another friend of mine is fond of quoting, 'All oppression is related.'"

That's a really interesting approach to take. I often have difficulty responding with a civil and coherent tongue when people say things to me like, "Oh, you must like man-bashing shows like [Home Improvement/Everybody Loves Raymond/etc.] -- you're a feminist, right?" Same about white-bashing media. It has nothing to do with being a feminist/anti-racist/LGBTQ advocate specifically, and the assumptions surrounding those labels make it harder for people to have serious discussions about the underlying issues.

[info]juvenile_philos

January 18 2010, 15:46:42 UTC 2 years ago

Yeah. I want a label that identifies me as anti-oppression and anti-prejudice. I think "Humanist" comes closer to that for most people. The word "feminist" sounds like "anti-man" to most people. Really though, feminism's ideals are by-and-large just a subset of Humanism's. Sometimes I'll phrase it as "I am a feminist insofar as I am a Humanist."

Unrelated (almost), here's the video my friend is fond of quoting. NSFW language (and concepts, heh).

[info]dragoni82

January 20 2010, 12:57:59 UTC 2 years ago

I've read a number of things, recently, about how "Feminism" has changed in scope and meaning, such that the early adopters of the movement wouldn't recognize the morph it's undergone. Even if it hasn't been an official doctrine shift, the word's been warped by the common usage to take an entirely different meaning.

>.> To the original point of this post, though -- I agree that this is one of the most intriguing ways to state the intention. Thank you for some new ponder-fodder.

[info]guyblade

January 19 2010, 04:51:40 UTC 2 years ago

I take a slightly different stance. In general, I most strongly identify myself as an atheist. This identification leads me to take stances primarily for pragmatic reasons. For instance, I don't really feel terribly strongly about gay rights. Nevertheless, because the people who tend to be opposed to gay rights are often the same people who try to negatively impact the rights of atheists, I support their struggle. This leads to a finite number of people having to divide their resources against more fronts. This same argument can be repeated for most anything that American Conservative Christianity opposes.

[info]guyblade

January 18 2010, 02:54:42 UTC 2 years ago

Once again, having actually played Resident Evil 5, I will say that your opinion is ill-informed. I will not disagree that the opening levels do have a lot of darked skinned people swarming the white protagonist, but in context it isn't presented that way. The opening level begins with a mostly normal village with people who are not zombies. The first zombie that you meet, you see the effects of the turning in all of their horror. Moreover, you see someone forcibly turned by non-zombies.

What may be more important overall is the point of the story. If you take the time to read the various documents left lying around in the game, you may begin to see that the game itself is an allegory for white colonialism. The Evil Corporation (an American company run by very unlikable people) sets up shop in Africa and begins to turn people by giving them smaller doses of the disease that makes them stronger and faster. Once they've done this, they begin using them as labor to gain access to various evil McGuffins until they eventually succumb to the disease and are released on other populations to spread it.

One can argue about how well this is conveyed in the game, but I will continue to strenuously argue that making an assessment of a work based on its promotional materials is irresponsible. Let the game stand or fall on its own merits.

[info]feveredwritings

January 18 2010, 03:05:38 UTC 2 years ago

This is a fair point. The post I link to here was written before the game was released, so all I had to go on was the promotional materials. To persist in my beliefs without playing the game now that I have access to it is inappropriate.

[info]khinsath

January 18 2010, 03:10:38 UTC 2 years ago

I've read through some of the links in the helpful resources page of the blog, and I'm not convinced that the authors of those essays are any more qualified to come to a conclusion about what does or does not constitute racism than anyone else. I'm sure the authors have done more study in the field than, say, I have, but that shouldn't preclude any well grounded opposition to the base assumptions at stake. It seems they are using the phrase "Educate yourself about what racism is," interchangeably with "educate yourself about the conventional beliefs of racism according to anti-racism/oppression doctrine commonly held in this community," which is like telling someone to educate himself on why the XBox 360 is the best gaming console ever created. How can you really educate yourself on a topic when the topic itself is grounded in dispute and of so broad a focus? I would think that they best you can really do is familiarize yourself with the topic itself and all sides of the argument that have already been put forth. The conclusion you arrive at should be one you've pieced together, which may or may not be the conclusion someone else has already arrived at.

Given the first line in the editor's revision, it seems that the community seems primarily concerned with discussion within the framework they're using that is geared towards policy change (I started to write "that agree with their points of view," here but stopped myself). Given that, I could see how challenging the author's definition of racism might have, from the community's point of view, belonged in another thread. But to outright dismiss an argument as either uneducated or invalid because it comes from a position of privilege or disagrees with a community-specific point of view is folly. It, in fact, seems to be similar in nature to saying, "You must be ignorant about why the Xbox360 is the best game system because you own a PS3," only with a more academic pretense. Arguments originating from different frameworks should complicate and strengthen a concept instead of being grounds for altogether dismissing the argument. I can understand not wanting an article to get bogged down with discussion of definition, as I'm sure happens frequently, but I think that's one of the risks an author takes when he uses broad and potentially problematic conclusions as fact in one of his main arguments in the article. It should certainly be possible to disagree with what an author has stated without completely disagreeing with an author's beliefs.

The posting guidelines for the blog state that, "You can disagree and state your opinion (politely), but be willing to engage with terminology and concepts with an open mind." Unfortunately, it seems that any comments about definition, even if they're relevant to the original post, can also trigger a "this poster is trying to derail the thread," defense mechanism, described in the same guidelines:

"Stay on-topic. Don’t hijack the thread or otherwise disrupt the discussion. For example if a post is discussing an oppressed group, do not derail the thread by complaining about the perceived oppressions that a privileged group has. For example, “Men/heterosexuals/whites/cis gendered/able-bodied/[insert privileged group] have it bad, too!” or “That’s reverse sexism!” These are classic derailing tactics that privileged groups use when they get defensive, shifting the discussion away from the topic at hand."

It may be an isolated case here, but ultimately, I would consider a community that outright dismisses the questioning of its base assumptions as derailing when the assumptions themselves are one of the topics being discussed in an article to be a close-minded community. That strikes me as odd in a community that supports what I would consider very open-minded ideals.

Apologies for length and rambliness.

[info]juvenile_philos

January 18 2010, 05:58:40 UTC 2 years ago

I just wanted to comment to say that despite length and rambliness you make good points and I agree with your thesis. Some communities have been through so many iterations that they are no longer very approachable to people who are interested only in the issues but not the collective history of the movement -- which is a damn shame when said communities have valid points to make but are crippled by their own jargonism.

[info]anh_irrsinn

January 21 2010, 13:14:23 UTC 2 years ago

I just want to come back and say that having reread the moderators' commentary on that post, I honestly don't understand why you'd read a blog/site/whatever where the moderators would append something like this to a post:

"This is not the place to derail discussion into what white people think racism is, dismissing the definition of racism we’re working with here (or the perspectives of POC), or trying to highlight the plight of prejudice against white people. Please check your privilege.

Please keep the discussion focused on the post. If you wish to discuss racism 101 concepts, if any of the concepts Lake Desire touched upon in her post are unclear, if you’re not sure why these definitions or concepts are used, how folks arrived at this definition of racism, or if you wish to learn more about racism, please see our resources page and take a look at the anti-racist blogs and web sites there."

What if I'd posted like you had? Would I then be more authoritative because I was telling them what a black person thought racism was? It's B.S. They're trivializing an important point by calling it "racism 101", like once you've mastered that obvious definition thing (along with, you know, "checking your privilege"), you can move on to the Big Boy discussions.

Gah.
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